Need advice for clearing Nidhogg EX

My FC and I have been to Nidhogg EX a few times (spent 3 hours so far), but have yet to clear it.

The current situation is:
1.) One or two people always die to cauterize.
2.) We sometimes wipe at add phase due to low DPS, people hit by Were Dragon, especially his fireball attack.
3.) Always wipe at Claw / Fang phase.
We have only cleared the Claw / Fang phase once, but then wiped at tower phase because tanks went to the wrong towers.

Basically, I need advice on how to clear that Fang / Claw phase first.
From what I can tell, the reason for our defeat is:
1.) Blue orb players stand too far south / north and are near spawning orbs.
2.) Blue orb players don’t move when an orb is near them, and get caught in splash damage.
3.) No red player goes to the north to grab orbs which spawn there.
4.) Only 1 or 2 red players go to the center to absorb the shared damage. When only 1 is there, they die.

I am a healer, so I am either red or have no tether. If I have no tether, I not only heal, but Stoneskin blue players. If I have tether, it’s hard to find time to Stoneskin.

Anyway, here is what I think we need to do, but I am not sure if this is correct. Please advise.
1.) Orbs don’t seem to the spawn on the far right side. Blue players should stand to the right side to avoid spawning orbs. Only 1 moves to the center to share damage.
2.) At least 1 red player needs to be up north to grab orbs which spawn there.
3.) As as soon as red player pops an orb, they should move to the center to share damage from a blue player with marker.

The Claw always dies, but the Fang always has HP remaining.
I gave this advice to the FC, but no one seemed to follow it. Is this bad advice? What are we doing wrong?

I think the DPS “should” be enough. Or, blue players are just getting hit by the orbs. How can they avoid the orb better? Is going to the far right a good idea? Or bad idea?

At What Point Does It Become Justified?

I’m curious, since the subject Im about to discuss seems to have so many different viewpoints and can potentially split the team. Either way, I’d just like to get a few ‘personal’ opinions, no matter how differing and laughable some may be (I mean no offense). Anyway, heres the question…questions:

At what point has shi…’stuff’…gone too far in Frontlines, in other words…’legal’ (any action that isn’t hacking imo ;p) actions, tactics, by the opponent team…that require a response of some sort? When is simple, honest, hateful revenge justified?? At what point are game objectives to be ignored completely in favor of a focused righteous curb-stomping of the offending team?

As far as I’m long as it doesn’t violate the rules of the ToS agreement (which simply amounts to hacking imo) A N Y action from an enemy team against yours is 100% legal. Bad taste, poor sportsmanship, ‘dirty tactics’, whatever, (these phrases mean nothing), from the enemy team is completely allowable. After’re sure as hell not there to have tea and discuss world peace with the members of a rival gc. You’re there to kill them, and vice versa. As such, tactics like spawncamping or attacking your team even though your dead last, while ‘shameful’, are perfectly allowable. Of course. . .

every action has its consequence.

So what would you personally say is the breaking point? When is enough enough? Some would say never, that theres no such thing, that you should always try to maintain your cool and keep focusing on the objectives, regardless of what style of play is being thrust upon you. Some believe winning is the most important thing (liek..why else would you be in pvp if not to win, right …so to speak) and are willing to endure outright abuse without slightest response to obtain it. PvP’s sensible version of ‘the better man.’

Then there are those who think some modest form of response to say…spawncamping, is agreeable, only however, if its on the path to the objective. In other words, yes, some revenge is good and healthy, but don’t go out your way for it and lose your perspective. Get a few licks back if at all possible, but don’t allow the opposing team to childishly ‘pull your chain.’ The decent class thats willing to put the interest of fellow teammates with a desire to win, ahead of their own need for revenge.

What about you?? Me humbly ask you to state your own thoughts and views. While Im sure it may develope into a ….passionate…subject, please try not to verbally smack others with a wooden spoon for theirs.

As for my own opinion, I r ashamed to say I fall into the last class of selfish idiots who care nothing whatsoever about winning, nor for teammates interested in such (me getting my cookies in pvp > you getting your crappy mount) And if me care nothing for me teammates (save…how much hp your body has left remaining in it to continue functioning as a living shield for meh) how much less Im willing to even slightly suffer overly aggressive opponents. Me is the kind that will GLADLY drop winning objectives and simply give the uninvolved team a free win in favor of having a second date with the team that just had to have a houseparty on our flag w/o at least some justifiable reason. Even if its animalistic thinking, far as Im concerned, pvpwise, theres nothing more deeply satisfying than well deserved revenge. What’s a passive victory where you limp to 1st place from following objectives and successfully praying to rngesus to be merciful…verses 2nd or even 3rd, along with that righteous, fear of god-azz-whoopin the other team had coming for that cute little spawncamp? Far far far more important things than just another notch on a win record.

Anyway, your own thoughts.

mogffxiv | How Final Fantasy XIV Stays Weird

Somehow, Final Fantasy XIV has become one of the best Final Fantasy games in recent memory, thanks to a bunch of winning factors that elevate it from the ranks of MMO dreck to a game that’s worth playing even if you’re by yourself.

One of those factors: It doesn’t take itself too seriously. Sure, there are crystals and heroes and all of the melancholy things you might expect from an FF game, but Final Fantasy XIV is often just as happy to get weird. Characters in the game will send you on tongue-in-cheek fetch quests, goof around with emotes, and subvert your expectations in some funny ways over the course of the game’s many, many quests and stories.

During an interview at E3 earlier this month, I asked director Naoki “Yoshi-P” Yoshida how he draws the line for this stuff. Have they ever come up with ideas or quests that are just too weird? Where do they find a balance?


“When I instruct my team members to come up with content ideas, I instruct them: Go too far, first, and then we’ll dial it down to make it fit in Final Fantasy,” Yoshida said, speaking through a translator. “You may be familiar with the Hildibrand quest – that’s actually already dialed down.”

The Hildibrand quest, of course, is a chain of preposterous sidequests centering around the comic relief character Hildibrand Manderville. They’ve become fan favorites over the past two years, thanks to dapper zombies and Hildibrand’s penchant for getting himself into the most ridiculous situations possible.


Too ridiculous, sometimes.

“Somebody brought up the idea of having Hildibrand fight Bahamut one on one,” said Yoshida, laughing. “I remember not approving that concept. It was just way too much.”

I also asked Yoshida about future content. Final Fantasy XIV has long seen a steady flow of content updates—and in just a couple of weeks we’ll see the crazy-looking Deep Dungeon—but what about the next big expansion pack?

“We actually are making plans for our next expansion,” he said. “The progress is moving along fairly smoothly. With Heavensward, because that was our first-ever expansion, we didn’t quite have a grasp on how the process should be, how scheduling should be, and we wanted to add in as much content as we possibly could, so it did turn out to be a rather aggressive schedule. With this next expansion, we’re trying to make it so our workflow is more organized and streamlined and that we try to make it so we’re planning ahead and making sure we have our ducks in a row.”

That next expansion will be announced at the Fan Festival in October, Yoshida has said. He wouldn’t say what the theme will be, but he did note that they’ve got a “rough ballpark estimate of the flow” of new content updates—4.x, they’ll be called—that we’ll see over the next couple of years.

I also asked Yoshida if he has a master plan in mind for the game—if he already knows how Final Fantasy XIV’s overall story will end.

“It’s an interesting question you ask, because this is an online game that we would love to continue for as long as we can, so in other words, it’s supposed to be perpetual,” he said.

“But that being said, yeah, there are different milestones that we would hit, and so there’s an arc, or like a chapter that we do have in mind. If there’s so much demand and love and desire for the fans and the company to continue Final Fantasy XIV beyond that milestone that we’re currently thinking about, then maybe we can start considering, ‘OK, so where do we want to travel next? Do we go to the world of Ivalice, or do we go to Final Fantasy III or do we go to Final Fantasy IV’s world?’ Things like that.”

“Would you ever consider adding those worlds to the current game?” I asked. “Like a continent of Ivalice or an area from another Final Fantasy game? You guys have already added bosses and characters from other Final Fantasy games—would you ever want to do an entire expansion pack on Final Fantasy IV or something like that?”

“If we were to start thinking about that I think it literally has to be if we were able to depict all of what we can for Final Fantasy XIV first, like all of the narratives, whatever it is that we can think about,” Yoshida said. “And then once we’ve gone past that point, then maybe it’s something that we might think about. If we were to do content like that, I think it would be something large-scale like an expansion, not something like a patch update.”

mogffxiv – Podcast: Final Fantasy XIV Is The Best Final Fantasy In Years

Kirk’s off this week, so today on Kotaku Splitscreen I’m joined by Mike Fahey to talk Final Fantasy XIV, 7th Dragon III Code VFD, and fanservice games. Also: the story of why he wasn’t allowed to go to the Tokyo Game Show.

Originally posted on 7/14/2016.

Seriously, guys, if you’re into JRPGs and have the time/money, Final Fantasy XIV is well worth it. Earlier this week I finished up the last of the post-main story stuff and it gets really, really good. From what I hear, Heavensward’s story is even better, so I’m pretty stoked for that too.


You can listen to today’s episode on iTunes or Google Play, or get it directly on Simplecast right here. (MP3 download here.) As always, you can reach us at with all questions, comments, and wonderful anime fan-art.

Watch Us Play Final Fantasy XIV's New Dungeon –

Today’s Final Fantasy XIV patch opens up the Palace of the Dead, a fascinating new dungeon that has randomized floors and self-contained equipment and leveling systems. Let’s check it out.

Watch Fahey, Cecilia and I take a trip through this new dungeon, seeing how far we can get before Fahey gets stuck in a trap and causes us all to wipe.

You can access the Palace of the Dead after hitting level 17 and getting a quick quest in New Gridania (full patch notes here).

Final Fantasy XIV's Exciting New Dungeon Is Not Very Exciting Yet [UPDATE] –

Final Fantasy XIV

When Final Fantasy XIV director Naoki Yoshida revealed the MMORPG’s upcoming Palace of the Dead dungeon last April, I had what I now realize was an embarrassingly romantic notion of what it would be: dungeon-crawling with friendly strangers, sneaking by traps and strategically navigating its roguelike-inspired, randomized maps to best an onslaught of challenging monsters.

Perhaps I was disappointed by my own expectations, something I’ve struggled with since FFXIV’s release in 2010, and even after its exhaustive redesign two years later. Everything about the Palace of the Dead seemed, at face, jagged and engaging and fun and troublesome. Unfortunately, up to its 40th floor, when I stopped, it felt very, very safe. Even grindy.

In FFXIV, I’ve been hunting the rushes I received from Final Fantasy XI, a frustratingly idiosyncratic MMORPG that, at times, felt like a punishing inside joke. Some monsters attack by sight, others by sound, and if players don’t consult their mental Excel spreadsheet of imminent death every few steps, imminent death will soon become inevitable. Often, in FFXI, players are forced to cross huge swaths of a zone saturated with belligerent mobs. Before hitting an outpost, they might die a half dozen times. And this all happens before level 20.


FFXIV patch 3.35’s highly-anticipated new dungeon, 40 unpredictable floors (50 if you have the Heavensward expansion) stuffed with various undead monsters, sounded at first like a nod to FFXI’s more severe features. Players can access the dungeon through a short quest once they hit level 17. Upon entering, their levels are reset to 1. In the isolated Palace of the Dead world, they can level up to 60, reaping experience points for their extra-dungeon character as well. They’re warned that its pathways will be changing constantly, reflecting the dungeon’s unique roguelike-inspired component, and that traps like exploring coffers will dot the maps. A checkpoint every 10 floors, after a boss, acts as a save point and rest stop.

You can solo it. Also, you can enter with up to three other players, friends or strangers. Players who solo report a more challenging and strategically complex experience—I opted to play with a matched party after my colleagues, Jason Schreier and Mike Fahey, and I tested it out live earlier this week. In June, Shreier spoke with FFXIV’s game director Yoshida about the dungeon:


The goal, Yoshida says, is to create something totally new. It’s meant to feel more accessible than high-level raids or other chunks of endgame content that require people to play through hundreds of hours worth of story.

“There are actually two large concepts behind the Deep Dungeon,” Yoshida said. “The first is to have veteran and new players come together and play this content.”

The second, he added, is to switch up the rhythm of typical dungeons and boss fights and create something that’s easier for casual players to jump into. The dungeon will have its own story, but it’ll feel very different, which should be welcome to lapsed or new Final Fantasy XIV players.

Accessibility was achieved, but, in my opinion, at the expense of charm. The Palace’s first few floors are your typical brownish, stone dungeon. Not just with regard to its look, which is torch-lit insipidness, but its play. As a black mage, I barely had time to cast “Fire” before our fighter two-shotted enemies. After he killed one mob, we achieved level two. 8 minutes in, we were already on the 4th floor. I felt like I was being rewarded simply for playing.

Then, there was the foot cutscene. It was, as I said, a cutscene of a foot. Yes, I thought, a vertical pan of this woman’s body totally constitutes a developing plotline. The next cutscene was a vertical pan of her dress.

Throughout the dungeon, my armor and weapon, which remained aesthetically but not functionally the same as my outside-world gear, leveled up when we found silver chests. This turned out to be an issue for me. After the first ten, effortless floors, we entered a purgatory room, where other players waited around. Then, my party left. I tried to follow them, but apparently my Palace of the Dead gear was not leveled enough for me to continue.

“Hey,” I asked a nearby elf in fancy gear. “Why does it say my armor isn’t strong enough? I just went through the dungeon like everyone else.”

“I think you still have to gain item ups from the first 10 levels,” he explained, “to access more levels.”

“So I have to run through again?” I clarified.


All right, I said, to nobody in particular, at 1:30 in the morning. Okay. Dungeon homework.

What made the second go-through worthwhile was trying out the various new “pomander” items. One transformed me into a succubus. Another metamorphosed enemies into cute little creatures, which was particularly fulfilling around floor 30, when we were aggroed by a half dozen “Nightmare Gourmands.”

As we leveled, the floors steadily added more frequent and difficult monsters. Area-of-effect attacks and enfeebling spells become more common among mobs, although the bosses remained relatively easy. Higher floors were decorated with shining crystals or fiery igneous rock, but none paralleled even the first FFXIV dungeon, Sastasha, in intrigue or beauty (to be fair, Sastasha’s neon, glowing plants are just amazing).

The whole Palace felt very classic in its approach to dungeon-crawling, a trait that some players have been praising as they level up new classes. I see its merits there: The Palace of the Dead is the ideal scenario for figuring out the ins and outs of a skillset. And, for more experienced players, I’m sure the Palace of the Dead is background to a lively chat conversation between friends. But truly, it is grinding:

The mobs’ battle mechanics aren’t particularly interesting for the dungeon’s first 20 levels. The randomized maps don’t affect strategy much, and actually made me wonder whether the “roguelike” draw was simply an excuse to skimp on level design costs. I advanced with unprecedented felicity, despite the fact that the dungeon didn’t require my full attention until the 30th floor (in no time, though, my level 42 black mage gained two levels). As someone who has seen what the game (and its predecessor) has to offer in terms of epic boss fights, beautiful zones and curious monsters, I was not impressed. Unlike FFXIV’s other dungeons, The Palace of the Dead felt unengaging.

Soon, new floors will be added. The experience, in all likelihood will be improved upon. Final Fantasy XIV is, we have seen, fantastic at improving itself (The game’s initial release was a complete flop. Subsequently, it was redesigned into one of the best MMORPGs of all time).

In my mind, FFXIV’s new dungeon could have been the solution to a certain flattening and streamlining of the Final Fantasy MMORPG franchise. FFXIV has, to me, at points felt like a railroad on which I am seamlessly ushered to experience points and benchmarks and quests. To many players, it feels like a better-designed game than FFXI. I wouldn’t disagree. It’s an amazing MMORPG. Perhaps my issue is that I like feeling frustrated—but only for the right reasons.

Update 7/26/2016: The FFXIV team announced today that they have made adjustments to the Palace of the Dead. Aetherpool Gear buffs will be more common upon opening silver coffers, decreasing the likelihood that players will have to re-run sections of the dungeon. Additionally, players will gain +1 enhancements on Aetherpool Gear after defeating the 50th floor boss.

mogffxiv | Final Fantasy XIV's New Fat Moogle Mount Costs A Whopping $30

I’m over Fat Chocobo, the bloated bird that has enraptured Final Fantasy fans for two decades. In Final Fantasy XIV, the gluttonous avian became a popular mount and meme when it was released as a part of 2014’s A Realm Reborn Collector’s Edition.

Today, the FFXIV team has unleashed what will inevitably take Fat Chocobo’s place in the fleshiest cockerels of our hearts: Fat Moogle. And it’s really expensive.

The two-person “plus-sized patrician” mount will be summonable with the Fat Moogle Bugle item (please say that out loud). Unlike Fat Chocobo, players won’t actually ride on Fat Moogle’s back. They’ll float through the sky in style, lounging on Fat Moogle’s garlanded bench. Two chibi Moogles will accompany players on either side. How does it fly? Who cares!


The mount is available for $30.00, half the cost of the entire game (minus the monthly subscription fee). FFXIV players seem pretty upset about the exorbitant price for this big guy, many claiming that, even for a two-person mount, Fat Moogle isn’t worth a fat wad. – The Ultimate Online FFXV Gil Provider

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Please fix the dragoon ability “jump”

Jump has a significantly long animation lock.

This is not a real problem when it comes to playing the game effectively.

In some cases it even makes Dragoon more fun, cause it creates a depth of timing or difficulty thats specific only to dragoon.

The problem here, is this is not in the tradition of Final Fantasy.

The simple fix for this, without creating any form of “overpowered” or “invincibility” is this:


Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
Returns you to your original position after the attack is made.
Cannot be executed while bound.

Additional Effect:
HP cannot be reduced below 1 HP for 4 seconds.
(could even add a diminishing return so that the effect doesnt work at all until 3 or so jumps later. Or more. whatever.)

This would not only keep the tradition of Final Fantasy, because traditionally Dragoons became invincible during jumps, but also, it would still hurt the dragoon significantly if timed incorrectly. This way you keep the difficulty of dragoon in battles, but gain the effectiveness of jump.

Plus i’m sure if the healer has to focus the tank they cant heal the dragoon, and if another area of effect goes out they would still die.

On top of this, heals are less MP than a raise, and dragoon is the only job with such a long animation lock that would kill them. Shoulder tackle is long but its not nearly as long.

Much better response.
Why werent you capable of saying that initially?

Also, to add to your statement, while jumping, the player was invincible. When landing they could get hurt again.

When jumping they were unable to be healed.

In XIV all of this is skewed due to the nature of its design.

So, if we wanted to go further, taking into consideration your now proper response, I would say “cannot be healed for 4 seconds” also.

Now things are getting convoluted. At which point Square-Enix would weigh and consider the responses to the thread and make a choice. That is in fact what the forums are for.

Your initial response? Would not help me nor the development team. It would not help me, cause i personally dont have an issue of timing jump.

The Ultimate guide to Creating Jobs for FFXIV

It’s all right there in the title folk. It’s everything you’ve ever wanted to know about how to craft a job for FFXIV. Now before anyone comes back at me with “hate” this is just a list of Guidelines. by no means is this how a job should be designed or the “proper” way. It’s just a way to organize our thoughts so that we all have an idea of what is going on when we each craft a job we’d like to see in the game. Now then shall we, XD

Okay, with 3.4 coming soon and we all feel the impending 4.0 on the horizon, a lot of players are Job crafting again. Throwing out ideas about future jobs they’d like to see implemented and giving their own spin on the job. I thought it would be a good idea if some “guidelines” were written down so that we are all almost on the same page. And anyone who speaks either, French, German, or Japanese; if you visit their forums and know they do the same thing, job crafting, then feel free to share these ideas with them. Now, again, this is not an end-all-beat-all, its just a fun set of guidelines we can all enjoy.

Don’t Go Beyond What Has Already Been Established
Okay to start, Rule 1 is, not to go beyond what the game has already given us. What is meant by that is, if the level cap is 60 (at the time of making this), don’t go beyond that level. Now, brainstorming beyond that is fine, for when that level can be reached. But we as a player base are unsure how the current Jobs and new Jobs will be implemented or changed so it is best to share what we are familiar with and not go beyond it.

Experimentation & Simplification
Now while we shouldn’t go beyond what has already been set up in the game, don’t be afraid to experiment and see what new and fresh ideas you can add to the game in the form of a new job. However, while Experimentation is good, remember to to keep things simple. Skills and Abilities shouldn’t require the use of 4-5 other skills or mechanics to use. If you think about all of the Skill and Abilities they have 2 functions or mechanics tops.

Do your Research
Be sure to do some research on the Job you wish to design. Check out past Final Fantasy games and see what utilities those jobs had in the various games they appeared in. Check out “real life” versions of the Job if one exists. Look at how other games have implemented similar jobs. Learn as much as you can, so you can make a great Job.

Know the Role you want to Create
Currently we have the MMO Trinity of Tank, Healer, and DPS, with each DPS being further broken down into Melee, Ranged, and Magic. Each Role has different mechanics to them depending on their function. Right now each Healer and DPS has their own individual mechanic, with Tanks having a semi-shared mechanic of MT and OT stance with an extra mechanic added in for 2 of them. Know which Role you want to make and it can help you design the mechanics better.

Create a New Mechanic or Mix and Match the Old
Creating a new game play mechanic from scratch can be hard, but it’s not impossible. But don’t be afraid to look at the mechanics already in the game and mix and match them to create a new but familiar one. Maybe combine the freeform mechanic of Monk with the stacks of Summoner/Scholar, or the Stacks of Warrior with the swapping mechanic of Black Mage. The possibilities are endless.

Create a Playing Curve
No one is given their full skill kit right off the bat. From level 1-30 each job starts out easy and transitions into a medium difficulty, introducing the main mechanic of the job and slowly adding to it. From 30-50 New abilities that add to the jobs mechanic and allow for new avenues within appear. 3.0 then added an additional feature to each DPS’s mechanic from level 50-60. Keep this in mind as you think of the main mechanic of the job and how the players will feel as they learn how to play it.

Organize Skills and Abilities and Traits Together
As you think of what Skills and Abilities to make to create your job, don’t forget that Traits are important too. And all 3 will be given at a certain level. But what level?
Having everything organized for people to see helps both you and them understand the flow of the job and when things will begin to pick up speed. not sure how to fix a skill that is slightly not working in later stages? add a Trait. Don’t have enough Traits? try removing an extra part of a skill or ability and adding it in with a trait. Working on all 3 at once can help you create a more cohesive job.

Be Creative with Names
Each job will need Skills, Abilities, and Traits to function, and what we call them will be up to you. You’d want those names to stand out, to pop; so do more research, lol. Some names might be easy, as you can just use a past name, but others will be more difficult.

Consider MP and TP Usage
Be sure to know whether the Job you are making will use TP, MP, or both and how much each ability should cost, and if there will be a recovery skill/ability that can be used. while TP might be a bit easy to understand, seeing as how the value is always 1000, for now, this chart might help you get an Idea for MP values and where you’d like them to be at the current max level (60 at the time of this posting)…Kjnxl1DG6RMALw

Use the Other Jobs as a Reference
Don’t be afraid to use the other jobs as a reference when trying to create a new skill or ability. All tanks have a basic damage reducing skill, when do they get it? how much damage does it reduce? Each healer has a basic heal, when do they get it? what is the potency? Don’t be afraid to look at these skill and abilities and emulate them if you need to. Most common abilities, heals, guards, combos, share a great deal than you might think.

Try to Maintain Balance
Hey you have a great idea for a skill, its awesome, but its not practical. Either its useful, but takes to long to use, or its so OP it makes the other Jobs in that particular role useless. Try and keep those things in mind when creating the Job as a whole. How long should the CD be? Should this skill be part of the jobs main mechanic? what skills or abilities do the other jobs have that might be similar to this one? Good questions to ask yourself and other players.

Don’t Worry About the Lore so Much
Lore is great, no one will deny that. but if you focus on the lore of the job you’d like to create it might hinder you. It’s best to create the job first and fashion the lore around it and not the other way around. This way you don’t back yourself into a corner before you’ve even begun.

Accept Critiques
And finally, the best thing you can do when creating your job is to accept the feedback of others. Sometimes we know, in our heads, how we want things to play out, but we may miss something minor, or something game breaking. But someone who is viewing these ideas fresh might see something we missed. Don’t take their critiques personally, most people just want to help you adjust your idea to be the best it can be. But at the same time, know which critiques to accept, and what changes to make, and know which ones to ignore. Some ideas people offer you will be good other not so much, but in the end you still want it to be your idea.

I believe that is everything I can think of as a “basic” guide to follow when job Crafting. Again this is a fun set of “guideline”, and is not meant to hurt anyone.

In addition, while I cannot say that this thread should be “pinned” to the discussion thread, though it might be nice, I think we as a player base should ask the Developers if they can create a Pinned Post where we can share job ideas and feedback in one place, instead of having several threads that get lost most of the time.